On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:50:21 -0800, Adam Aglionby wrote:

[...]

Actual reason , as diagnosed by this group at time, was thing started
burning its own engine oil via the breather pipes, cutting diesel supply
made no odds, suggestion here was a large wooden ball for the air
intake has been known on static set ups.

Official VAG workshop training for a runaway diesel is to try to throw
water into the air intake to stall it. If this fails, evacuate the
workshop and wait for the bang.

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

Adam Aglionby
wibbled on Tuesday 09 February 2010 20:50

On 5 Feb, 19:54, Tim Watts wrote:
When they built electric trains in the 60-70's, the failsafe was a long
electrical wire that ran right down the train, looped through various
emergency stop handles and other interlocks and required a flowing
current to hold a contactor *in* to maintain motive power, and another
contactor to allow the brakes to be let off.

If the wire broke or the current interrupted, motors off, brakes on
emergency application...

They *thought* about basic **** like this back then.

I worry about SWMBO's MINI (stupid start button) buy at least that has a
mechanical clutch and a plain box.

But I am starting to think that they really need an emergency pull knob
that guarantees to disengage the engine at a very low and simple level
like cut off power to the injector pump and ECU and spark assembly where
applicable and cut the fuel on a diesel.


Cutting fuel isn`t always enough on a diesel, have found that one
out...

Indeed it isn't - but in the bounds of the problem being discussed which
centres on electronics going dolally, it's the best that can be almost
trivially achieved (main engine management and fuel pump(s) power is
physically routed through a hard-to-accidently but easy-to-do-an-emergency-
operation switch on the dash. Oh, I seem to have reinvented the original
ignition switch!

This other problem (secondary fuel ingress, aka lubricating oil) would need
an additional solution akin to the one you mentioned, cutting off the air.

Wonder how hard to would be to have a cable operated flap and a pull knob on
the dash? Probably be siezed up first time it was needed though...

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Chris Whelan
wibbled on Tuesday 09 February 2010 21:31

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:50:21 -0800, Adam Aglionby wrote:

[...]

Actual reason , as diagnosed by this group at time, was thing started
burning its own engine oil via the breather pipes, cutting diesel supply
made no odds, suggestion here was a large wooden ball for the air
intake has been known on static set ups.

Official VAG workshop training for a runaway diesel is to try to throw
water into the air intake to stall it. If this fails, evacuate the
workshop and wait for the bang.

Chris


That leads to the interesting idea of diverting the engine coolant (after
the pump) to the air intake as an emergency measure. Not sure hydraulicking
the engine in gear would feel good at 70mph though... And you'd *never* be
able to test the mechanism to see if it was working (bit like the old Morris
Minor 2nd Amber instrument warning light - "oil filter blocked" - did that
*ever* come on?)

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 23:48:07 -0000, Tim Watts wrote:

Chris Whelan
wibbled on Tuesday 09 February 2010 21:31

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:50:21 -0800, Adam Aglionby wrote:

[...]

Actual reason , as diagnosed by this group at time, was thing started
burning its own engine oil via the breather pipes, cutting diesel
supply
made no odds, suggestion here was a large wooden ball for the air
intake has been known on static set ups.

Official VAG workshop training for a runaway diesel is to try to throw
water into the air intake to stall it. If this fails, evacuate the
workshop and wait for the bang.

Chris


That leads to the interesting idea of diverting the engine coolant (after
the pump) to the air intake as an emergency measure. Not sure
hydraulicking
the engine in gear would feel good at 70mph though... And you'd *never*
be
able to test the mechanism to see if it was working (bit like the old
Morris
Minor 2nd Amber instrument warning light - "oil filter blocked" - did
that
*ever* come on?)


You're not trying to hydraulic lock it, burning premixed oil and air is
fairly inefffecient

--
Duncan Wood

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:50:21 -0000, Adam Aglionby
wrote:

On 5 Feb, 19:54, Tim Watts wrote:
When they built electric trains in the 60-70's, the failsafe was a long
electrical wire that ran right down the train, looped through various
emergency stop handles and other interlocks and required a flowing
current
to hold a contactor *in* to maintain motive power, and another
contactor to
allow the brakes to be let off.

If the wire broke or the current interrupted, motors off, brakes on
emergency application...

They *thought* about basic **** like this back then.

I worry about SWMBO's MINI (stupid start button) buy at least that has a
mechanical clutch and a plain box.

But I am starting to think that they really need an emergency pull knob
that
guarantees to disengage the engine at a very low and simple level like
cut
off power to the injector pump and ECU and spark assembly where
applicable
and cut the fuel on a diesel.


Cutting fuel isn`t always enough on a diesel, have found that one
out...

Diesel Citroen AX, post mortem reckon overfilled with oil due to
checking level on a slope, took a couple of weeks to manifest though.

70 outside lane dual carriageway, back off throttle because if
traffic,

Nothing happens,

Pump throttle thinking its sticky,

Nothing happening

Hang on something is happening

bitch is accelerating,oooops

Turning ignition off has no effect

oh dear or words to that effect, look for candid camera boom attached
to car , its missing , this really is happening.

put clutch in and knock it into neutral only solution, engine life not
really important if not extant myself

Lean on brakes which do a worrying fade as pull accross 2 lanes
looking like a shot down Stukka trailing thick black smoke. Really
would have been good as a spectator.

if you're in neutral & your brakes are fading at 70mph then you really
want to go & have words with whoever sold you the pads, the 1960s where
over 40 years ago.



Eventually stopped and then stalled engine against brakes by crashing
it into 4th.

Compression was fine after, none of the bearings sounded too good
though.

Top tip whan AA are giving you `the may be some time` treatment, sound
of fire engines in background gets them there a bit quicker.

Actual reason , as diagnosed by this group at time, was thing started
burning its own engine oil via the breather pipes, cutting diesel
supply made no odds, suggestion here was a large wooden ball for the
air intake has been known on static set ups.

Cheers
Adam





--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.


So , as always, stand on the brake pedal works lovely.

--
Duncan Wood

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
That leads to the interesting idea of diverting the engine coolant
(after the pump) to the air intake as an emergency measure. Not sure
hydraulicking the engine in gear would feel good at 70mph though... And
you'd *never* be able to test the mechanism to see if it was working
(bit like the old Morris Minor 2nd Amber instrument warning light -
"oil filter blocked" - did that *ever* come on?)

Don't remember seeing that on any A series engine. What version of Minor
had it?

--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mrcheerful wrote:
my sierra has no servo, it has an electric pump instead.

I thought this was the case with most modern cars fitted with ABS.

My experience is perhaps limited, but of the Selection of less than 10
year old VWs, Audis, Peugeots, Saabs and Mazdas I've worked on recently,
all definately have vacuum servo with their ABS.

Perhaps manufacturers are moving away from it now.

--
Douglas

Duncan Wood wrote:
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:50:21 -0000, Adam Aglionby
wrote of stopping a car with a runaway engine:

Lean on brakes which do a worrying fade as pull accross 2 lanes
looking like a shot down Stukka trailing thick black smoke. Really
would have been good as a spectator.

if you're in neutral & your brakes are fading at 70mph then you really
want to go & have words with whoever sold you the pads, the 1960s where
over 40 years ago.

Haha, someone should have told PSA! The brakes on small-engined AXs and
106s are woefully easy to persuade to fade.

--
Douglas

Dave Plowman (News)
wibbled on Wednesday 10 February 2010 00:57

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
That leads to the interesting idea of diverting the engine coolant
(after the pump) to the air intake as an emergency measure. Not sure
hydraulicking the engine in gear would feel good at 70mph though... And
you'd *never* be able to test the mechanism to see if it was working
(bit like the old Morris Minor 2nd Amber instrument warning light -
"oil filter blocked" - did that *ever* come on?)

Don't remember seeing that on any A series engine. What version of Minor
had it?


Traveller 1000 circa '63. I thought most Minor's/Minis of that era with the
big central speedo had the same basic 4 lights (battery-charging [red],
fullbeam [blue], oil-pressure, oil-filter [both amber])?...

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Duncan Wood
wibbled on Wednesday 10 February 2010 00:18


You're not trying to hydraulic lock it,

No, just musing what would happen if...

burning premixed oil and air is
fairly inefffecient


So that presumably would make it more of a go-er to stall with the brakes?

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.