"Hog" wrote in message
...
"Oliver Keating"

The problem is that she is completely missing the bigger picture.

The fact is that if all of these manufacturers have invested in LPG,
then
it
would be totally unfair to remove to incentives that make the LPG
market.

Additionally, she bangs on about carbon-based tax, which is all very
well
but CO2 isn't everything, and even then, LPG should be cheaper than
diesel
because for every litre of LPG burnt, it produces about 33% less CO2
than
each litre of diesel.

I think shes a complete idiot. If the Government decides to force an
exit
of
the LPG market it won't be pretty, especially for all of those who have
invested in it, from private individuals to multinational companies like
GM.
They will be royally ****ed off, and why not? The Govt can't just decide
to
change the goalposts.

If something drastic does happen to LPG then no one will ever trust the
Govt. again.

It also completely misses the most important point of all. Distribution
systems. It has been painful and slow just to get the existing coverage of
LPG availability. It has however been helped by the diverse use of
Propane.
To enable the Hydrogen cycle the government would have to mandate that
every
large filling station in the country make it available by a certain date
(or
somesuch).

The entire country is missing a trick here though. Take for granted that
it
is possible to produce a *very* clean diesel engine. The particulate
exhaust
filter was patented a couple of years ago.

The problem is that clean diesel engines are difficult to build, and
particulate filters hit fuel economy (around 10%) rather like the old cats
did when they were installed.

Consider that biodiesel from Rape
crops is a good fuelstock. Now make a jump to mandating that (by a given
date) all diesel has to be from this source and it may not be imported.
You
would completely re-energise farming in this country and massively improve
the national balance of payments. It is such an obvious and completely
beneficial concept that I can only presume alternative pressure groups
prevent it happening.

I heard that even if the whole country was turned into intensive farming for
Bio-D then we would only have about 9% of our needs.

To be honest though, as an alternative fuel Bio-D does seem to have the
advantage over LPG. One problem seems to be that the outlets that sell
"Bio-D" often do it at only 5%, which I reckon is a bit of a joke. Tax
breaks should only be applied to 100% farm fuelled, and I do think they
should be entiltled to a very stong break.

I am keeping my eye very strongly on the whole Bio-D situation. One think is
that there is a great deal of excess farming capacity in African countries.
Just think of how it would help their economies to be selling us Bio-D fuel!

--
Hog
(remove bondage to reply)
'89 R100RS '02 GSXR1000K2
BOB#5 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

"Oliver Keating" wrote in message
...

"Hog" wrote in message

The problem is that clean diesel engines are difficult to build, and
particulate filters hit fuel economy (around 10%) rather like the old cats
did when they were installed.

Not any more. The new technology filters the soot from the exhaust and
incinerates it at very high temperature as a completely seperate process or
indeed it can be removed.


Consider that biodiesel from Rape
crops is a good fuelstock. Now make a jump to mandating that (by a given
date) all diesel has to be from this source and it may not be imported.
You
would completely re-energise farming in this country and massively
improve
the national balance of payments. It is such an obvious and completely
beneficial concept that I can only presume alternative pressure groups
prevent it happening.

I heard that even if the whole country was turned into intensive farming
for
Bio-D then we would only have about 9% of our needs.

Not at all, we could produce what we need and then afford to buy in the low
value food crops! it would be very interesting if there was a seawater
aquaculture plant or algae that could be similarly used. Also I wouldn't
mind a genetically modified oil producing plant!

I am keeping my eye very strongly on the whole Bio-D situation. One think
is
that there is a great deal of excess farming capacity in African
countries.
Just think of how it would help their economies to be selling us Bio-D
fuel!

That rather runs contrary to my argument!! let them sort out their own
affairs.

--
Hog
(remove bondage to reply)
'89 R100RS '02 GSXR1000K2
BOB#5 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:11:06 UTC, "Hog" wrote:

: "Oliver Keating" wrote in message
: ...

: Not at all, we could produce what we need and then afford to buy in the low
: value food crops!

: One think
: is
: that there is a great deal of excess farming capacity in African
: countries.
: Just think of how it would help their economies to be selling us Bio-D
: fuel!
:
: That rather runs contrary to my argument!! let them sort out their own
: affairs.

Why is it OK for them to sell us low value food crops but wrong to
sell us biodiesel?

Ian

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-sQSdMFzKzZVf@localhost...
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:11:06 UTC, "Hog" wrote:

: "Oliver Keating" wrote in message
: ...

: Not at all, we could produce what we need and then afford to buy in the
low
: value food crops!

: One think
: is
: that there is a great deal of excess farming capacity in African
: countries.
: Just think of how it would help their economies to be selling us Bio-D
: fuel!
:
: That rather runs contrary to my argument!! let them sort out their own
: affairs.

Why is it OK for them to sell us low value food crops but wrong to
sell us biodiesel?

Because as selfish self serving human beings we will be wanting to keep the
more valuable crops ourselves. Also reference my point about balance of
payments.

--
Hog
(remove bondage to reply)
'89 R100RS '02 GSXR1000K2
BOB#5 COFF#22 BOTAFOT#122

"Robin Dumpleton" wrote in message ...

GM plants let loose in Africa? Can you see Greenpeace letting that happen.

Robin, you made me smile ...

http://pewagbiotech.org/newsroom/ann...nts/082603.php

Some facts for the lazy to click:

GM crops are planted on more than 145 million acres worldwide

U.S. Farmers are the largest producers of GM food crops, accounting
for over two-thirds of all biotechnology crops planted globally (96.3
million acres)

In 2003, 81% of U.S. soybeans were genetically engineered, covering
59.7 million acres.

Now, if GM crops are taking over the US, what will stop them taking
over Africa?

In 20 years they will take over Europe, too. It's just a technology,
nothing else. We don't stop using cars because people get run over -
and with GM crops people are just talking that maybe sometime someone
might get hurt.

Novice

In message , Novice
writes
"Robin Dumpleton" wrote in message
...

GM plants let loose in Africa? Can you see Greenpeace letting that happen.

Robin, you made me smile ...

http://pewagbiotech.org/newsroom/ann...nts/082603.php

Some facts for the lazy to click:

GM crops are planted on more than 145 million acres worldwide

U.S. Farmers are the largest producers of GM food crops, accounting
for over two-thirds of all biotechnology crops planted globally (96.3
million acres)

In 2003, 81% of U.S. soybeans were genetically engineered, covering
59.7 million acres.

Now, if GM crops are taking over the US, what will stop them taking
over Africa?

In 20 years they will take over Europe, too. It's just a technology,
nothing else. We don't stop using cars because people get run over -
and with GM crops people are just talking that maybe sometime someone
might get hurt.

Novice
You mean like CJD or thalidomide?
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid

half the african countries can't currently grow enough food, let alone grow
crops to produce biodiesel...

and some of the previously-productive countries are now in deep sh-1-t; i
offer you Zimbabwe as an example.

and no, I don't have an easy answer either.

Well there is one possibility. The company in East Anglia that makes the
stuff is making it from waste (ie used) cooking oil from fast food
resaraunts etc. That means it serves us twice. The trans-esterification
process required to make Bio-D means that you don't have to have virgin
oil to produce it. The only problem at present seems to be that we're
not recycling our cooking oils, and the people making Bio-D can't make
it in enough quantity to compete with the big fossil fuel companies on
price. Still, things can change. (I'm not saying that recycling old oil
will be sufficient, but it's a start.)


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Austin Shackles" wrote in message
...
On or around Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:37:08 +0000 (UTC), "Adam Coombes"
enlightened us thusly:

half the african countries can't currently grow enough food, let alone
grow
crops to produce biodiesel...

and some of the previously-productive countries are now in deep sh-1-t;
i
offer you Zimbabwe as an example.

and no, I don't have an easy answer either.

Well there is one possibility. The company in East Anglia that makes the
stuff is making it from waste (ie used) cooking oil from fast food
resaraunts etc. That means it serves us twice. The trans-esterification
process required to make Bio-D means that you don't have to have virgin
oil to produce it. The only problem at present seems to be that we're
not recycling our cooking oils, and the people making Bio-D can't make
it in enough quantity to compete with the big fossil fuel companies on
price. Still, things can change. (I'm not saying that recycling old oil
will be sufficient, but it's a start.)

some people are doing this on a DIY basis. But there ain't a-gonna be
enough of it. Even by growing oil crops all over the place. Consider
how
many millions of gallons of fuel are used, compared to the number of chip
shops.

I'm not saying that it doesn't help, and so does using LPG (instead of
flaring it off) but they're all only slowing down the rate of fossil fuel
use. Ultimately we either need a rethink or some serious advance in
technology to allow us to do what we do now by using much less fuel.

Horses!

--
Hog