One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of this NG.

Late fifties, the MG EX 179 and 181 won all sorts of land speed records
using a four cylinder twin-cam lump of varying capacities according to which
record they were going for.

I always thought the engine was basically a Jaguar XK cut down to a four, as
intended for the still-born XK100. This month's Classic & SportsCar reckons
it was the excellent but typically underdevelped MGA Twin-Cam, which was
based on the B Series block.

Anybody know or have any information? Was it a Jaguar or MG/BrileyMoCo? I
guess the block would be a giveaway - either it was the Morris B Series or
the Jaguar XK - anybody know which it was?

Or was there a bit of a crossover of designers - for example, around 1942
Edward Turner (Triumph parallel twin and later Daimler 2.5 and 4.5 designer)
approached William Lyons (Jaguar) with a proposal for a Jaguar motorcycle.
Unfortunately, it didn't happen, but close inspection of the Triumph Speed
Twin and XK120 combustion chambers indicates what I have heard referred to
as "remarkable similarity".

Not a completist, nor writing a book, just curious.

Geoff MacK

"Geoff Mackenzie" wrote in message
...
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of
this NG.

Late fifties, the MG EX 179 and 181 won all sorts of land speed
records
using a four cylinder twin-cam lump of varying capacities according to
which
record they were going for.

I always thought the engine was basically a Jaguar XK cut down to a
four, as
intended for the still-born XK100. This month's Classic & SportsCar
reckons
it was the excellent but typically underdevelped MGA Twin-Cam, which
was
based on the B Series block.

Anybody know or have any information?

Pausing only to don his anorak, and pick up his copy of the definitive
"Maintaining the Breed" by John Thornley...

EX 179, which has a chapter to itself, was powered by versions of the
XPEG engine, which dates back to the Wolseley/Morris engines of the 30s,
and in particular to the 1938 XPAG 1250cc pushrod ohv engine, which went
on to power the TB, TC, TD, and some TFs. George Eyston's sprint engine
(1460cc) gave 97.5bhp at 6500rpm, unblown, which was enough to manage a
flying 10 miles at 153.69 mph. The "12 hour" engine gave around 81bhp,
and with this fitted, Eyston and Miles broke 7 records, all at around
120mph.

Blown, this engine once managed 231bhp.

No mention in this book of EX181 - it goes straight to EX182, the Le
Mans car, prototype of the MGA, which had a B-series engine.



--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. )***
SA1838,(for sale) TC8512, GAN4/63840, GHD5/324616 (for sale)

"Geoff Mackenzie" wrote in message
...
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of
this NG.

To continue...

This time, the source is Wilson McComb's book "The Story of the MG
Sports Car".

In 1956, EX179 was fitted with a prototype B-series twin cam engine, and
collected 16 more records in the 1500cc class (up to 170.15mph). Then
in 1957, with a prototype Spridget engine, unblown, it managed three
more records in the 1100cc class, and, supercharged, 6 more.

EX181, driven by one Stirling Moss, took 5 records in 1957, up to
245.64mph (1500cc, blown), and then in 1959, bored out to 1506cc to make
it eligible for the 2000cc category, it managed 254.91mph.

So, yes, both cars had versions of the B series engine, but EX179 also
ran with XPEG and A-series engines.

Now can I take my anorak off, please?


--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. )***
SA1838,(for sale) TC8512, GAN4/63840, GHD5/324616 (for sale)
Car Transport by Tiltbed Trailer (for friends)- based near Derby

"Autolycus" wrote in message
...

"Geoff Mackenzie" wrote in message
...
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of
this NG.

Late fifties, the MG EX 179 and 181 won all sorts of land speed
records
using a four cylinder twin-cam lump of varying capacities according to
which
record they were going for.

I always thought the engine was basically a Jaguar XK cut down to a
four, as
intended for the still-born XK100. This month's Classic & SportsCar
reckons
it was the excellent but typically underdevelped MGA Twin-Cam, which
was
based on the B Series block.

Anybody know or have any information?

Pausing only to don his anorak, and pick up his copy of the definitive
"Maintaining the Breed" by John Thornley...

EX 179, which has a chapter to itself, was powered by versions of the
XPEG engine, which dates back to the Wolseley/Morris engines of the 30s,
and in particular to the 1938 XPAG 1250cc pushrod ohv engine, which went
on to power the TB, TC, TD, and some TFs. George Eyston's sprint engine
(1460cc) gave 97.5bhp at 6500rpm, unblown, which was enough to manage a
Just dug out my only MG book - flying 10 miles at 153.69 mph. The "12
hour" engine gave around 81bhp,
and with this fitted, Eyston and Miles broke 7 records, all at around
120mph.

Blown, this engine once managed 231bhp.

No mention in this book of EX181 - it goes straight to EX182, the Le
Mans car, prototype of the MGA, which had a B-series engine.


Cor, crikey, that complicates the issue still further. Could the block -
which I suspect would be definitive, be an XPEG or XPAG and not a B Series
or Jaguar? In these Heritage times, I assume the original engine must exist
somewhere. Anyone know where?

As I understand it, the EX181 was a supercharged version of EX179, which
achieved 245mph at either the Salt Flats or Daytona Beach - can't remember
which, but irrelevant - driven by Stirling Moss.

Just dug out my only MG book - "The MG Companion" by Kenneth Ullyett,
foreword by Cpt G E T Eyston. A stunningly inaccurate work, even to a
non-MG bloke, but it does contain pictures of "Stirling Moss takes a
refresher before his 1957 245.64mph run with EX181" and "Phil Hill in Utah
in conjunction with Austin Healey taking short-distance records at over
250mph". He does, though, on page 87 acknowledge John Thornley's
"Maintaining the Breed" to which you refer!

On looking again at my book, I see it is the property of Beddington and
Wallington Public Libraries; it seems I borrowed it on 4th December 1965
and I am liable for fines for "overdetention". Oops!

Geoff MacK

"Autolycus" wrote in message
...

"Geoff Mackenzie" wrote in message
...
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of
this NG.

To continue...

This time, the source is Wilson McComb's book "The Story of the MG
Sports Car".

In 1956, EX179 was fitted with a prototype B-series twin cam engine, and
collected 16 more records in the 1500cc class (up to 170.15mph). Then
in 1957, with a prototype Spridget engine, unblown, it managed three
more records in the 1100cc class, and, supercharged, 6 more.

EX181, driven by one Stirling Moss, took 5 records in 1957, up to
245.64mph (1500cc, blown), and then in 1959, bored out to 1506cc to make
it eligible for the 2000cc category, it managed 254.91mph.

So, yes, both cars had versions of the B series engine, but EX179 also
ran with XPEG and A-series engines.

Now can I take my anorak off, please?

Cor blimey - looks like anoraks at dawn....

Seems like the Jaguar XK theory is but an urban myth. Wish I could remember
where I read it.

Geoff MacK

In article ,
Geoff Mackenzie wrote:
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of this
NG.

Late fifties, the MG EX 179 and 181 won all sorts of land speed records
using a four cylinder twin-cam lump of varying capacities according to
which record they were going for.

I always thought the engine was basically a Jaguar XK cut down to a
four, as intended for the still-born XK100. This month's Classic &
SportsCar reckons it was the excellent but typically underdevelped MGA
Twin-Cam, which was based on the B Series block.

Anybody know or have any information? Was it a Jaguar or MG/BrileyMoCo?
I guess the block would be a giveaway - either it was the Morris B
Series or the Jaguar XK - anybody know which it was?

Most of the record breakers used the earlier XPA series of Morris
pushrod engines - unless you go back to prewar days and the overhead
cam 6.

The twin cam was on a B series block. Made production in limited
quantities. But the bottom end of the engine was barely adequate for the
standard engine let alone a more powerful twin cam which needed to rev.
It may have owed some design features to the XK engine - I don't know.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Geoff Mackenzie
writes
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of this NG.

Late fifties, the MG EX 179 and 181 won all sorts of land speed records
using a four cylinder twin-cam lump of varying capacities according to which
record they were going for.

I always thought the engine was basically a Jaguar XK cut down to a four, as
intended for the still-born XK100. This month's Classic & SportsCar reckons
it was the excellent but typically underdevelped MGA Twin-Cam, which was
based on the B Series block.

Anybody know or have any information? Was it a Jaguar or MG/BrileyMoCo? I
guess the block would be a giveaway - either it was the Morris B Series or
the Jaguar XK - anybody know which it was?

Or was there a bit of a crossover of designers - for example, around 1942
Edward Turner (Triumph parallel twin and later Daimler 2.5 and 4.5 designer)
approached William Lyons (Jaguar) with a proposal for a Jaguar motorcycle.
Unfortunately, it didn't happen, but close inspection of the Triumph Speed
Twin and XK120 combustion chambers indicates what I have heard referred to
as "remarkable similarity".

Not a completist, nor writing a book, just curious.

Geoff MacK

EX179 used a number of engines, according to what class of record it was
breaking at the time. Initially it used a modified TF1500 unit, and in
1956 it was fitted with the prototype MGA Twin Cam engine. In its final
incarnation, the car received a supercharged Austin 948cc unit, and
it's in this guise that it resides at the Heritage Museum at Gaydon.

EX181 used a supercharged MGA Twin Cam unit. This car is also at Gaydon.
--
Regards

Leroy Curtis

Please replace "nospam" with "baram" in my address if you wish to
reply by Email

"Geoff Mackenzie" wrote in message
...
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of this
NG.

Late fifties, the MG EX 179 and 181 won all sorts of land speed records
using a four cylinder twin-cam lump of varying capacities according to
which
record they were going for.

I always thought the engine was basically a Jaguar XK cut down to a four,
as
intended for the still-born XK100. This month's Classic & SportsCar
reckons
it was the excellent but typically underdevelped MGA Twin-Cam, which was
based on the B Series block.

Anybody know or have any information? Was it a Jaguar or MG/BrileyMoCo?
I
guess the block would be a giveaway - either it was the Morris B Series or
the Jaguar XK - anybody know which it was?


Right engine, Geoff, but the wrong car. When the idea of the XK engine was
first mooted it was supposed to come in two sizes - a 2 litre (80.5 x 98mm)
4 cylinder which was to power a car called the XK 100 and the 3.5 litre six
(83 x 106mm) used in the XK 120 and everything else. There was something
about this in the 'Automobile' magazine a year or so back and it gave the
reason why the XK 100 was not proceeded with, but I can't remember it and I
have passed the magazine on.
As far as I know only one 4 cylinder engine was built and it was used by
'Goldie' Gardner to break records for Class E (2 litre cars) in what by then
was called the Gardner Record car. You may remember a Dinky Toy model of it
in your youth, green, very low and streamlined (the car - I'm not sure
about you in your youth). I think this car started life as an MG chassis
sometime in the 30's and had performed with a selection of different sizes
of engine, most of which were based on MG ones. Post-war he broke the
flying start 750cc records up to 5km. in 1946, 500cc records in 1947 and,
using the Jaguar engine, the 2 litre ones in 1948. As an example the
average speeds for the flying mile were 159.15, 117.5 and 173.678mph
respectively. At this time his 1939 records for the 1500 and 1100cc classes
still stood - both at over 200 mph.

Ron Robinson

"R.N. Robinson" wrote in
message ...

"Geoff Mackenzie" wrote in message
...
One for the anoraks, I guess - or, perhaps, the genuine readers of this
NG.

Late fifties, the MG EX 179 and 181 won all sorts of land speed records
using a four cylinder twin-cam lump of varying capacities according to
which
record they were going for.

I always thought the engine was basically a Jaguar XK cut down to a
four,
as
intended for the still-born XK100. This month's Classic & SportsCar
reckons
it was the excellent but typically underdevelped MGA Twin-Cam, which was
based on the B Series block.

Anybody know or have any information? Was it a Jaguar or MG/BrileyMoCo?
I
guess the block would be a giveaway - either it was the Morris B Series
or
the Jaguar XK - anybody know which it was?


Right engine, Geoff, but the wrong car. When the idea of the XK engine
was
first mooted it was supposed to come in two sizes - a 2 litre (80.5 x
98mm)
4 cylinder which was to power a car called the XK 100 and the 3.5 litre
six
(83 x 106mm) used in the XK 120 and everything else. There was something
about this in the 'Automobile' magazine a year or so back and it gave the
reason why the XK 100 was not proceeded with, but I can't remember it and
I
have passed the magazine on.
As far as I know only one 4 cylinder engine was built and it was used by
'Goldie' Gardner to break records for Class E (2 litre cars) in what by
then
was called the Gardner Record car. You may remember a Dinky Toy model of
it
in your youth, green, very low and streamlined (the car - I'm not sure
about you in your youth). I think this car started life as an MG chassis
sometime in the 30's and had performed with a selection of different sizes
of engine, most of which were based on MG ones. Post-war he broke the
flying start 750cc records up to 5km. in 1946, 500cc records in 1947 and,
using the Jaguar engine, the 2 litre ones in 1948. As an example the
average speeds for the flying mile were 159.15, 117.5 and 173.678mph
respectively. At this time his 1939 records for the 1500 and 1100cc
classes
still stood - both at over 200 mph.

Ron Robinson



Ron - many thanks for bringing some additional light to the gas-lit end of
my memory bank! I was sure there was a record-breaker powered by the XK100,
but you are quite correct - I had confused the Goldie Gardner car with the
EX. Sadly I never had the model, although I was very proud of my George
Eyston LSR car; unfortunately every Christmas my parents used to give all
my old toys to the local children's hospital, so that was the last I saw of
it....

I seem to remember the 4-cyl XK100 never ran smoothly enough for production,
but it may simply be that when the XK120 was displayed at the Motor Show
(intended as a test-bed for the engine which was to go into the MK7) Jaguar
were so overwhelmed by orders that it just fell by the wayside. No great
loss, I would think, although if it produced the power and speeds you
mention maybe with development it would have made a good basis for a
smaller, lighter car than the XK120 - but I rather think young master Lyons
had his hands full at the time.

Thanks again,

Geoff MacK

"Geoff Mackenzie" wrote in message
...


I seem to remember the 4-cyl XK100 never ran smoothly enough for
production,
but it may simply be that when the XK120 was displayed at the Motor Show
(intended as a test-bed for the engine which was to go into the MK7)
Jaguar
were so overwhelmed by orders that it just fell by the wayside. No great
loss, I would think, although if it produced the power and speeds you
mention maybe with development it would have made a good basis for a
smaller, lighter car than the XK120 - but I rather think young master
Lyons
had his hands full at the time.


'The Motor Yearbook for 1949'* gives basic specifications for both the XK
120 and the XK 100 cars. As I doubt if the latter was actually ever made,
this is an interesting feat, probably accomplished by extrapolating from the
120. They reckoned a production 2 litre engine would have given 95 bhp @
5000 rpm as opposed to the 120's 160 bhp. It doesn't sound a lot these
days, but compares well with a fairly cooking Bristol. I think you're right
about the demand for the 120 being so overwhelming that Bill Lyons saw no
point in glueing up the production lines with something he would probably
make less money on and wouldn't sell so well anyway. Talking of production,
I was taken round Browns Lane sometime in the mid 50's and I still haven't
worked out how they managed to produce even one car a day, let alone the
number that they did.

Ron Robinson

*That's where the Gardner figures came from - I don't want you to think I
carry that sort of stuff around in my head.