"Bob Edwards" wrote in message
...
Do a comparison of the 2 cars on the What Car website and much of the
data
shows in some ways a strange similarity: e.g. Power (138 and 134 bhp)
and
torque (232 and 232 lb/ft) are virtually identical - so both cars will
tow
well.


True, although the Sorento achieves both max bhp and max torque at lower
revs.

Minor difference.

7.5% and 5% differences may not be major - but you mention a a difference in
running costs all built into the "cost per mile" which differs by "only" 5%
so I am not to worried about it!!


Surprisingly the X-Trail is only 57 mm shorter than the Sorento,
though lower.

True it is only 57mm longer, but the 119mm extra width and 149mm extra
height make a real difference, more passenger space and boot space
massively
up based on the figures on What Car (several times the volume).

Agree


Oh good! :-)


Then look at the top speed, mpg and acceleration figures and
the X-Trail wins hands down.

Thats pushing it a bit - the Sorento is approx 33% heavier than the
Nissan
and you would expect something that much bigger and heavier to use a but
more fuel and be a bit slower (if similar engine). The Xtrail returns
about
10% or so to the gallon and achieves 112 against the Sorentos 106 -
neither
of which can really be described as "winning hands down" in fact given
the
Sorentos 33% extra size and weight I would consider that advantage
pretty
poor.
Acceleration 0-60 is a bit more of an issue with a 3 second difference,
but
"real world" performance is not an issue.

Now you are trying to twist the arguement to suit yourself. I'm not
talking
about efficiency - just look at the FACTS. Fuel consumption, service
intervals, service costs, pence per mile etc etc - the X-Trail is better.

Fuel consumption, service intervals, service costs all come into "cost per
mile" dont they - well the What car cost per mile indicates a difference of
5%. You may not be interested in efficiency (which indicates that the
Sorento does well considering its 33% extra weight), but 5% is hardly
massive is it.

I too sold a Discovery to buy an X-Trail and I am exceptionally
pleased
with
it. If you like driving (with and without the caravan) then the
X-Trail
is
much more car-like, is nippy and handles really well. If you want a
higher
driving position, cumbersome handling and performance which is more
agricultural, then the Kia or Discovery fits the bill.

Higher driving position, yes - to call the Kia "agricultural" in any
sence
is plain stupid (and, yes, I know What Car used that word). The
discovery
is
agricultural, the kia is nothing like it at all.



So all the professionals at What Car are wrong and you are right?

Lets just say that there are MANY road tests that give a different opinion
on this point than What Car - it is therefore not so much me that is saying
that What Car professionals are wrong - more you that are saying that MANY
other professionals world wide are wrong! Bottom line is they cant all be
right can they, and "agricultural" is certainly not a word (or one of
several words meaning the same thing) that is remotely common to reviews of
the Sorento



Handling is far from the likes of older "agricultural" 4x4's and it was
tuned by Porche, yes - on bad roads the ride is a little harsh but it is
very well controlled. The ride is not the Sorentos best point


Just shot yourself in the foot.

Not at all - just because the ride is not (in my opinion) the Sorentos best
point does not actually mean that it is bad or a problem - or agricultural.
It is a far more comfortable ride than many sports cars and you would not
call them agricultural would you. It can mean something completely and
uttelry different.

Given the number of areas the Sorento receives great praise the ride could
still be its wost feature yet still be perfectly acceptable to most people.
The ride is a little "firm" on some country roads in my opinion (not so much
potholes - more the sort of iregularities in surface - lumps and dips - that
are the preserve of pretty minor roads). It is never a noisy ride, never
feels uncontrolled but could be a bit better from a comfort point of view in
some situations. Some testers have made negative comments about it - and
some have made positive comments about it - it is the one area where people
seem to agree to differ. However, even testers that make a negative comment
about the ride dont generally use the term "agricultural" or anything
meaning the same thing.

Neither the X-Trail nor the Sorento will be "right" for everybody - and it
is clear that the owners of both vehicles are generally very happy with both
of them. The difference is the people who choose a Sorento because it suits
their needs will also feel that they have somehow "beaten the system" - i.e.
they have a vehicle which offers them the combination of things that matter
to them and that no other vehicle comes close to at remotely the same
price - yet it is still very well put together and looks good.

My one and only aim is to get people who may not have even considered the
Sorento to look at it if they are considering a 4x4 at 20k +/- 2k. For some
people the Sorento will offer them something that they couldnt previously
afford with decent quality to boot - for others, for what ever reason it may
not be for them - fine, I dont want to see the streets full of them!

My gardener bpought a new X-trail last summer and he likes it - but when he
saw the Sorento he was really ****ed off because he had not looked at one
before. For him the Sorento would have given him a LOT more space (next size
up) and real 4x4 (low range - useful when he is felling trees and needs to
tow weight over quite rough ground) in a quality generally modern package
the likes of which he previously simply could not afford. Just want people
with similar requirements to know there is a choice - a lot of people,
especially ones who dont read the mags, still dont know about the Sorento -
and I know that from the questions I get asked still when I park mine. These
people "assume" it is more expensive than it is and therefore wouldnt even
look at one. So please understand the points I am trying to make.





Bob


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Neither the X-Trail nor the Sorento will be "right" for everybody - and it
is clear that the owners of both vehicles are generally very happy with
both
of them. The difference is the people who choose a Sorento because it
suits
their needs will also feel that they have somehow "beaten the system" -
i.e.
they have a vehicle which offers them the combination of things that
matter
to them and that no other vehicle comes close to at remotely the same
price - yet it is still very well put together and looks good.

My one and only aim is to get people who may not have even considered the
Sorento to look at it if they are considering a 4x4 at 20k +/- 2k.

It seems as you also want to slag off the competition, if I can quote from
one of your earlier posts:

"I have a Sorento 3.5V6 and a guy in our villiage was so impressed that he
swapped his Merc (40k new 3 years back) for one the same as mine. Could you
possibly imagine, in your wildest dreams him swapping it for an X-Trail
(unless his financial position or something else equally important changed
quite dramatically) - I dont think so."

Bob


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"Bob Edwards" wrote in message
...
Neither the X-Trail nor the Sorento will be "right" for everybody - and
it


It seems as you also want to slag off the competition, if I can quote from
one of your earlier posts:

"I have a Sorento 3.5V6 and a guy in our villiage was so impressed that he
swapped his Merc (40k new 3 years back) for one the same as mine. Could
you
possibly imagine, in your wildest dreams him swapping it for an X-Trail
(unless his financial position or something else equally important changed
quite dramatically) - I dont think so."


Thats a bit unfair - in fact its a bit more than unfair.

It is very rare for someone to be comfortable changing their car for another
one at half the price. It would be normal and reasonable for someone to feel
decicedly that they were trading down and driving something inferior. That
fact cannot be taken as a criticism of the cheaper car and is not therefore
slagging off the cheaper car - it may well be very good for the money asked
in the general scheme of things.

My point was that someone can (rather unusually) move from something rather
more expensive to a Sorento (especially the petrol) without feeling they
are trading down dramatically - as long as they have the ability to ignore
the badge (and that last point being the critical one).

Earlier you insisted on concentrating on the "FACTS" - so lets just do
that - it is a fact that I know someone that has moved from a 40k+ merc to a
22+ Sorento and genuinely feels that he has lost out on nothing whatsoever
of any importance other than "the badge". If you know anyone that has
moved from a respected "big name" make costing 40k+ to an Xtrail and
genuinely feels that they have not lost out on anything other than the
badge, then by all means let me know. Personally I dont, and I cant really
imagine anyone doing so.

For what its worth I quite like the X-trail - I have nothing against it
whatsoever - other than the fact that i can get what is in my view "much
more of a car" for similar money without suffering poor quality and ancient
technology. It is the Sorento that offers (what is universally aceepted as
in the tests) quite exceptional value for money, rather than the X-trail
which represents poor value for money in the general marketplace.

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:43:37 +0000 (UTC), "PR"
wrote:

For what its worth I quite like the X-trail - I have nothing against it
whatsoever - other than the fact that i can get what is in my view "much
more of a car" for similar money without suffering poor quality and ancient
technology. It is the Sorento that offers (what is universally aceepted as
in the tests) quite exceptional value for money, rather than the X-trail
which represents poor value for money in the general marketplace.

I didn't think so when I made a comparison with the Freelander. The
X-Trail has persuaded me that when I upgrade my Freelander, it'll have
a Nissan badge on the front.

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

Earlier you insisted on concentrating on the "FACTS" - so lets just do
that - it is a fact that I know someone that has moved from a 40k+ merc to
a
22+ Sorento and genuinely feels that he has lost out on nothing whatsoever
of any importance other than "the badge". If you know anyone that has
moved from a respected "big name" make costing 40k+ to an Xtrail and
genuinely feels that they have not lost out on anything other than the
badge, then by all means let me know. Personally I dont, and I cant
really
imagine anyone doing so.

Yes - I moved from a top spec. Discovery XS with just about everything and
which cost £35,000 new, to an X-Trail, which in my opinion is a better car
for all the reasons stated previously.


For what its worth I quite like the X-trail - I have nothing against it
whatsoever - other than the fact that i can get what is in my view "much
more of a car" for similar money without suffering poor quality and
ancient
technology. It is the Sorento that offers (what is universally aceepted
as
in the tests) quite exceptional value for money, rather than the X-trail
which represents poor value for money in the general marketplace.


The X-Trail has nearly as much "kit" as the Sorento, apart from maybe
self-levelling (not that good when towing - too rigid for the caravan) and
low range (which I have never used) and the price is comparable, if a little
cheaper. Therefore the only reason I can think of why you believe the
Sorento is "much more of a car" is that it is BIGGER. Well, if bigger is
better then you have won this argument!


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"PR" wrote in message
...

My gardener bpought a new X-trail last summer and he likes it

Nice touch - what does your chauffeur drive?

Budgie

"Bob Edwards" wrote in message
...
Earlier you insisted on concentrating on the "FACTS" - so lets just do
that - it is a fact that I know someone that has moved from a 40k+ merc
to
a
22+ Sorento and genuinely feels that he has lost out on nothing
whatsoever
of any importance other than "the badge". If you know anyone that has
moved from a respected "big name" make costing 40k+ to an Xtrail and
genuinely feels that they have not lost out on anything other than the
badge, then by all means let me know. Personally I dont, and I cant
really
imagine anyone doing so.

Yes - I moved from a top spec. Discovery XS with just about everything and
which cost £35,000 new, to an X-Trail, which in my opinion is a better car
for all the reasons stated previously.

Christ - not the one that What Car give one star out of five to overall??

The bottom line is that the discovery is basically a 22k car and all the
bits that you add to it to push the price up by that amount aint going to
change the basics.

Do the same to the merc I was talking about and you are probably looking at
something obsene like 60k!

For your sake I hope you bought the disco second hand! - or did you really
move from a car that actually cost you 35k to the X-trail??

We all know that you can buy big cars cheap second hand and moving from a
second hand car that cost a lot new but cost you a lot less to a new one
that cost you a similar amount is hardly same as moving from something you
paid 40 for new to something you pay 20k for new. (if that is what you did,
I dont know).


The X-Trail has nearly as much "kit" as the Sorento, apart from maybe
self-levelling (not that good when towing - too rigid for the caravan) and
low range (which I have never used) and the price is comparable, if a
little
cheaper. Therefore the only reason I can think of why you believe the
Sorento is "much more of a car" is that it is BIGGER. Well, if bigger is
better then you have won this argument!

Exactly!!!..................... to a point!

There is some truith in that certainly, but whilst I do accept that "big" is
not best for everyone (it is for me), the REAL POINT is that it would
normally be reasonable to expect a significantly bigger car with similar
spec and similar fundamental "quality" to be a significantly more expensive
car than another model that is definately "the next size down".

Within any one manufacturs range you will see that - a base spec X type jag
is cheaper than the base spec S type although much kit is similar. Same
with Freelander to Disco to range Rover and so on. Please dont try and be
cleaver by pointing out that you can get a ford van for less money than a
ford "something smaller" - I thnk you will understand the point!!

With the Sorento you get a high spec vehicle with probably very similar
usable space to a Range Rover (certainly more than a disco) for the price of
a moderate spec Freelander. The chances are it will prove to be far more
reliable that your average land Rover product to boot.

It will be interesting to see what Kias new smaller 4x4 is like when it
comes out to replace their current very old offering. It is perfectly
possible that it is similar in size to the X-Trail with similar or better
spec and well put together for 5k less - we will just have to wait and see
(may be smaller and cheaper still).

You stick to your Xtrail and you will be happy with it - I will stick with
my Sorento and I will be happy with it - the only difference is I will feel
that I have somehow "beaten the system" because everyone else who has bought
a different vehicle new of the same sort of size and quality, with a nice
3.5v6 engine, auto box, leather, cruise, full time 4x4 plus low ratio box
and loads of other spec will have paid a LOT more for it.




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"PR" wrote in message
...

ou stick to your Xtrail and you will be happy with it - I will stick with
my Sorento and I will be happy with it - the only difference is I will feel
that I have somehow "beaten the system" because everyone else who has bought
a different vehicle new of the same sort of size and quality, with a nice
3.5v6 engine, auto box, leather, cruise, full time 4x4 plus low ratio box
and loads of other spec will have paid a LOT more for it.

I wonder what it will be worth in 2 or 3 years. comperd to the Xtrail.

BTW: I have just put 10K miles on my 2000 Disco in the last 8 months. The
car has now covered 66K.No problems yet.
Did have to replace a door mirror glass. (heated type) £13 new.
Don't believe all the bad Land rover press.

C C

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:14:09 +0000 (UTC), "PR"
wrote:

You stick to your Xtrail and you will be happy with it - I will stick with
my Sorento and I will be happy with it - the only difference is I will feel
that I have somehow "beaten the system" because everyone else who has bought
a different vehicle new of the same sort of size and quality, with a nice
3.5v6 engine, auto box, leather, cruise, full time 4x4 plus low ratio box
and loads of other spec will have paid a LOT more for it.

The 3.5v6 causes me a little concern - fuel consumption is probably
nothing to be proud of. What sort of figures do you achieve if you
don't mind me asking?

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

"Budgie" wrote in message
...
"PR" wrote in message
...

My gardener bpought a new X-trail last summer and he likes it

Nice touch - what does your chauffeur drive?

Budgie



Yes, I had to smile!!! He used to drive a battered old mondeo estate.

Actually he is retired and has a decent pension and savings - but he loves
gardening (and harder land maintenance as well) and needs to fill his time
so might as well earn a few quid an hour doing it.

He doesnt work for me full time needless to say!!

We live in the country and a lot of people locally use him to keep trees and
acres of grassland under control as well as pruning the roses! Probably has
a better income now than before he retired.